Coatings 101 - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Ed Klonowski of Gaco. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Hello and welcome to this month's Coatings Talk from CoatingsCoffeeShop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about Coatings 101. Yes, that is exactly what... You know, we kind of need to start at the basics sometimes and so today is really going to be about what it's all about. And we've gotten our experts from Gaco to come in today. I am so happy to introduce Ed Klonowski, who is going to really share with us today what's happening.

But before we go into the introduction, I do want to make sure we do a few little housekeeping. And this is being recorded, it will be available within the next 48 hours. So be sure to share that out with your friends, your family, all of your folks in your company, because this is the kind of information that's not only good for the whole industry, but it is amazing for anyone new to the industry. Also, be sure to know that the chat is open, so we want your comments all the way through. We want to make sure we hear your thoughts, questions, just whatever as we go through and we'll be taking those throughout the whole time. So let's get started with this Coatings Talk. Ed, thank you so much for being here today. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do with Gaco?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, thanks for having me today, Heidi. And good morning, good afternoon to everyone that's joined us today. So I am Ed Klonowski, I'm a product manager with Holcim. I've been in the industry now for over eight years. I started with Firestone as the single-ply rigid polyiso product manager out the gate. And then post acquisition of Gaco, I took over the product management responsibilities for their liquid-applied roof coatings and decking and waterproofing products. So I started my career in the manufacturing engineering space and then subsequently moved into product management, marketing development and continue that position today. Background is physics and mechanical engineering from Michigan. So I'm looking forward to talking with you guys about a little intro to coatings.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, and I want to say thank you to Gaco as our sponsor for this Coatings Talk. What a well-known brand, I mean such great products. So can you just share with everybody upfront a little bit about Gaco?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so Gaco's been around for over 60 years, was formed originally as the Gates Company, kind of pioneered itself with our LM60, which is a liquid-applied waterproofing product. Grew from there into the roof coating space, into the spray polyurethane foam space. And over last couple of decades has really started to establish itself as a leader in roof coatings, namely silicones, but now expanding more and more into the future of liquid-applied roof coating. So adding additional chemistries, capabilities and options for the contractors.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. That's great. Okay, well, I'm excited to hear about this. Let's get started. I do want to remind everyone that the chat is open, so please let us know where you're from, what you're doing, the name of your company and as we go along, of course, any questions that you have. I will be monitoring the chat and this is a conversation. But to start out, let's look at what is traditional roof coatings? What is that all about? Can you kind of take us back to the beginning, Ed?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so I mean, traditional coatings have been around for centuries. But more recently, and probably better to most of the audience, is the bituminous, your tar and gravel roof systems, been around for decades in the market. And kind of dominated the liquid-applied portion for roofing for the last 60, 70 years. More recently, you've started to get into some of the alternative coatings, getting into the polymer-based products. So all the various chemistries that roll up under that, the main three that I'm sure most people have heard about, the acrylics, the urethanes, the silicones, but then further expanding into some of the new emerging chemistry. So your silane modified products, your PMMAs, your polyureas, stuff of that nature that really has a lot of different performance benefits and offer a lot of alternatives to some of the more traditional products. And when you talk about performance, all of these products have great capabilities given the right circumstance.

So your selection of a system is going to depend on the roof type, where it's located, how it's being used, what it'll be subjected to over its life, to really hone in on what the best solution is for a given roof system and can really be used first and foremost as a maintenance coating, which is probably the most common application at this time, but then also as a full protective waterproofing system for a new installation. So lots of opportunities in the coating space. And then above and beyond that, when you talk about maintenance and even new installations to some respect, you look at the opportunities that present themselves with the cool roof movement.

A lot of the roofing systems that are out there are the old bitumenist systems, your tar and gravel systems, even some of the legacy EPDM systems, albeit a little newer. And those are non-reflective surfaces, they collect a lot of heat and depending on the insulation of these buildings can radiate that heat into the building below. So one of the things some of the polymer modified coatings offer is an easy way to transition from one of these legacy systems to a reflective solution. So reflecting that UV radiation away from the building instead of absorbing it. So reducing the energy load on the building, improving comfort inside and really helping to moderate what that internal building envelope sees over its life. So lots of options out there, lots of opportunities and lots of places that this can readily be deployed.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And when you really think about the growth of coatings, there are so many reasons why, but that cool roof has really been a driver in the adoption and really the growth of white, especially white reflective and I know you can have reflectives in other colors, but those roof solutions.

Ed Klonowski: Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, so the other thing that I see really driving over the last couple of decades is what we're seeing with contractors and service and maintenance and really how important that is to building owners and to the architectural community. I shouldn't say architectural, more to the building owner community. So let's talk a little bit about those maintenance coatings.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so one of the benefits of a maintenance coating is obviously labor. Labor has been something that's plaguing our industry for well over a decade. It's hard to get new roofers into the industry, and as such, just the available labor pool is really tightened up. And as an alternative to replacing a roof or tearing off or reskinning a roof, coatings offer a nice opportunity to renew the roof at a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the labor. When you look at an existing single-ply or built up system, obviously for any maintenance application, it's just that. It's maintenance, it's not necessarily a new roof. Now, they do offer a lot of benefits depending on the chemistries you go with in extending or enhancing the performance of that roof. But first and foremost, you want to start with a sound waterproof system. Whatever that legacy system is, you want to inspect it, maybe friction up the penetrations, your seams, address any damage that may be on the roof and you're going to repair that with like product. You're not going to do that with typically a coating.

So if it's a TPO roof, you're going to cut out a damaged section, make sure the substrate's dry and repair it with TPO. From there, then you have a myriad of options with the different coating chemistries to rejuvenate and prolong the life of that roof for 10, 15, 20 or more years. And when you talk about costs, this can be incurred as a maintenance cost, not as a CAPEX project. So there's some benefits to building owners there. Additionally, you can change some of the attributes of a roof. If you're just looking at transitioning to a reflective roof, most of the reflective coatings can do that. If you're looking at maybe improving some of the waterproofing characteristics or enhancing that, depending on if you're a coastal region or you see a lot of rain like up in Seattle, silicones offer a fantastic option there.

It could be something as simple as improving some of the impact resistance. If you're in the central US and you see a lot of hail, a lot of severe weather, you know urethanes offer great impact resistance. So there's various chemistries that can be used to enhance an already performing system. Not to mention the fact that by going this route, all of the polyiso insulation that you previously installed is still being used. You're not tearing it off, you're not throwing it in the landfill. That polyiso will perform for decades without issue. It's a thermal set foam, so it's not going to degrade over time. It's not going to lose its R-value over time. So it'll always be there and always be performing. So being able to reuse and enhance those systems is huge from an environmental standpoint.

And then lastly, when you talk about maintenance, when you look at codes, FM and UL, you are allowed to install up to two roofing systems on a given roof before you have to tear back down to the deck and start new. New insulation, new membrane, so on and so forth. A maintenance coating is not classified as a new roofing system, so it allows you to continuously recoat that system and extend that length of that roof almost indefinitely. So you have a 15 year life cycle on a single-ply roof. You come back and let's say you want to reskin it, okay, there's your two roofs. Going forward, 15 years later, you can apply a coating that'll get you 10 to 20 years of additional life.

When that has lapsed, you can come back and coat it again almost indefinitely to prolong the life of that roof without sacrificing and trashing everything that you've already invested in that initial roofing system.

So lots of benefits there, especially with classifications with the FM and UL of a maintenance coating. And when we talk about classifications, this isn't simply applying a paint over an existing roof system. These systems are fully UL and FM tested to specific standards that are based on the individual chemistries to perform just like a single-ply system would go through UL and FM qualifications for their given makeup. So very high end performing systems and something that is a legitimate option at this point in time.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: When you're really looking at that, when I think about the maintenance and the service to maintenance programs that are out there right now with roofing contractors really has allowed this growth because they're on the roof twice a year. They're checking it, they're making sure there isn't moisture in the roof. They're being able to catch things before they happen. That's really, I think, been a huge addition. And also to help the growth of coatings because you're there every year, so what's happening.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean, similarly, whether it's an existing single-ply system or a roof coating, if you're going up there once, twice a year, if you have trouble spots, you can go and patch them and continue to maintain that membrane. It's very easy to go and refresh these systems on an annual basis versus letting it go for 10, 15 years and then dealing with the consequences of an unmanaged or unmoderated system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: A full tear-off into landfills.

Ed Klonowski: [inaudible 00:12:36].

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly. Okay, here's one of the things, since we started CoatingsCoffeeShop last year, I've had a lot of people who have said, "Okay, is it roof coatings? Is it liquid-applied membranes? What is it?" And I think that is a big question that everyone has out there. So let's talk about liquid-applied membranes and kind of define that.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so a maintenance coating in the eyes of UL and FM are designed to go over an existing waterproofing system, while they can provide additional waterproofing options and performance benefits, in the eyes of regulatory agencies, they're not classified as a membrane system or waterproofing system. Now, these same coatings when enhanced or applied in combination with supporting products can actually provide a waterproofing membrane. So that's where your term maintenance coating versus liquid-applied membrane comes in.

So in these cases, there's typically more than one component that's used. So we'll talk about the two systems in a second, but you typically have either coatings that are used in combinations with fabric reinforcement or they can be used in combination with spray polyurethane foam to form these systems. Now it's a little more complex than your traditional maintenance coating, but is fully qualified and classified as a full membrane system. These, by contrast of maintenance coatings, do carry waterproofing certification. So while some chemistries are better than others for ponding water, they will all form a fully waterproof system.

So there's not necessarily the need for an existing system underneath them. You can install your rigid polyiso, put one of these over top and that would classify as a system. You can do spray polyurethane foam coat over top, that would be a liquid-applied system. There are a number of options to get to this type of product. And once again, they carry the same UL and FM approvals and certifications that a liquid-applied membrane does. And we'll talk about it in a second, but when you look at some of the fabric-reinforced systems, if you go to a TPO or PVC manufacturing plant, they melt the polymers, they're run through a machine, a fabric is embedded in the plant and you have a rolled good membrane that is shipped to site. Most of these systems are constructed the same, just manufactured on the roof. So once again, you have your polymers on top and bottom, you're embedding a fabric, it's reinforced. So it's really the same type of system, just field applied and manufactured versus manufactured in a plant. So these are different systems than maintenance coatings. But they are similar in chemistries and performance.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And when you talk about performance and really the testing, talk a little bit more about that too.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so in the eyes of UL and FM, there's different standards for acrylics, for urethanes, for silicones, tensile strength, bending, flexibility, all of these different criteria, same as you would test a single-ply membrane that these systems are subjected to. And stepping from a membrane system to a liquid-applied system, a lot of those same standards are held, but just enhanced and tested a little further to their fullest capabilities to make sure that you're not going to have water intrusion in these systems, that they're going to be able to withstand a lot more of the movement if you're using sheet applied ISO underneath, you're going to have a little more movement than you would say if you used a spray polyurethane foam. So just a little bit more stringent and higher end testing that's required to get to that liquid-applied membrane stage. But similar in many regards.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Okay. Okay, well, let's talk a little bit then about the benefits of liquid-applied membranes.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so once again, these are full code approved systems. They can be warranteed by the manufacturer, but they do carry UL, FM, Miami-Dade, Texas Department of Insurance approvals for use as a roofing system. Some of the benefits now when you talk about a traditional single-ply system, you have typically 10 foot rolls that are rolled out, you laminate all the seams or you weld the seams or you glue the seams depending on the system, you flash around all of your penetrations, you have to weld those to the membrane. There's a lot of different junction points that need to be addressed to make sure it maintains a waterproof system.

With liquid-applied systems, you are creating a single monolithic sheet. Because you can manufacture it on the roof, you can pour the coating out, roll it right up to your penetration, right up to your scuppers, there's no seams. The fabric is embedded side by side, typically overlapping four or so inches. So you're really creating a single waterproofing sheet instead of a number of pieces that are welded and subjected to the installer's attention to detail to make sure that there's no leaks, no gaps, no voids with these systems. So it really is a phenomenal performing system when installed and eliminates a lot of the weak points of a traditional single-ply system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And it hits a lot of those code approvals.

Ed Klonowski: It hits the same code approvals. I mean these are tested to the same standards as single-ply systems. So there's really no differences there. And then if you look at single-ply systems, the number one way of installing those, once again due to labor, is mechanically attached or induction welding, kind of a hybrid, which perform great, they're cost effective, but do not have the uplift performance that the fully adhered systems do.

Now, you can fully adhere a single-ply system, but it's only 20, 25% of the market. Whereas every single liquid-applied membrane is fully adhered by nature. So you're automatically getting that superior wind uplift, which if you're in tornado prone areas or coastal areas that might see hurricanes, can be a huge advantage in the lifetime of that roof.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: When you think about all the extreme weather that we are seeing, and you even mentioned earlier about hail and depending on the formulas, how much that [inaudible 00:19:27] is able to really work well with these liquid-applied systems.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean, you have systems out there that pass hail rating and severe hail rating for FM. So you're not shortcutting the performance of a roof system by going with a coating. These are very high end, very well performing systems.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, very cool. Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about the types of liquid-applied systems because we have two here and I'd love for you to go in depth on how these work and how people can start looking at it.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so we alluded a little bit to this earlier, but the two main types are a spray polyurethane foam coating. So this is your typically three pound roof foam in place of a rigid polyiso board. So rigid polyiso board obviously manufactured in a plant, shipped by the truckload to the site, manufactured on site, ideally overlapping joints in multiple layers to eliminate cold joints and shunts. The spray polyurethane foam instead is shipped in drums and once again manufactured on site with a spray rig and provides you a complete monolithic insulation layer, not that dissimilar from what you're doing with the coating. And then after that, you apply most of the same coatings over top of this. Now with this type of system, because you have a solid monolithic base, typically you don't have to reinforce the coating. So you can use most of the common silicones, acrylics, urethanes directly over top of the spray polyurethane foam to complete your system.

The other option would be a fully reinforced system. So this would be an alternative if you don't want to invest in a $100,000 spray foam rig to be able to do that on site, you can utilize the sheet applied ISO, install that with or without a cover board, be it gypsum high density polyiso and then layer coating directly over top. Now in these cases, since you're typically dealing with four by eight sheets of insulation, you're going to see a little more movement at the joints. And that is why most of these systems require a fabric reinforcement. So you'll go and apply your first layer of coating, you will embed a scrim into it, it can be number of widths, but typically you're going to overlap the joints four inches, embed that in your first layer and then top coat it with a second layer of coating and then you can go three, four coatings over top of that depending on what you're going for. But that provides the same type of waterproofing system as say a comparable single-ply system. Just, once again, manufactured in the field versus at a plant and then installed.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And I hope this isn't a bad question, but I am curious too, when you're talking about SPF and coatings and also fully reinforced, this can go over, as long as the roof is in good condition, it can go over an existing roof, correct and help to increase insulation?

Ed Klonowski: It can, yes. Yes. I mean, there's hybrid systems to this. If you want to use a sheet applied ISO, do a skin coat of spray foam over top and use a coating, you can certainly do that. These reinforced systems can go directly over existing single-ply systems. Now there's some caveats to that that we'll discuss later, but there's no reason you couldn't use one of these systems over an existing single-ply without issue. If you want to enhance and bring up to code an existing building while still utilizing the existing ISO, you can certainly apply additional spray foam and then coat over top of that. So yes, while these are typically positioned as new roofs, you can certainly use them in various ways for a re-roof, if you will.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: A reroof. And I know with what's going on in California right now and which is spreading across the country, there is increased call for insulation. So these are good opportunities to be able to do that.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean the vast majority of roofs in the US are still under the current codes. Now, codes for R-value of a given roof vary by region and have kind of hit their peak as far as return on investment from the R-value and performance you're getting compared to the cost. But most of these buildings still aren't up to those specs. And depending on the building owner and what you're doing to the roof, you do have the option of bringing it up to code or are required to bring it up to code in some cases. And spray polyurethane foam can certainly do that without tearing off what you already have there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, that's perfect. And we did have a question, looks like we have a little chatter in the chat. But Bill had asked, "Is a liquid-applied membrane considered a reroof?" And you were kind of answering that, but let's just make sure we answer that question fully.

Ed Klonowski: It is. So we'll go into it more later, but when you do a liquid-applied system in the eyes of UL and FM, that is considered a roofing system. So that would count towards your two roof cap in the eyes of regulatory bodies.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That makes sense. Keep the questions coming. Thank you. And thank you, Joe, for that conversation there. So as we look at this, advantages of spray foam and coatings, what are some of the advantages?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so with the spray foam and coating system, once again, we talked about the monolithic nature that coatings or liquid-applied systems can offer by comparison to your single-ply systems. With the insulation, once again, typically these are shipped in four-by-eight sheets and the precision to which they can be installed around rooftop units, around penetrations are only as good as the contractors willing to carve and patch around these pieces. Even so, they have joints every four feet or eight feet depending on the direction. They're typically fastened down with fasteners that are metal. So once again, you have a conductive shunt that runs right through your insulation system. So while a phenomenally performing system, there are better options out there. And spray foam offers one of them.

So with spray foam, since you are manufacturing it on site, you spray it down and you don't stop. You go right around penetrations, around rooftop units. You can correct for slope using if, if you have low lying areas that need to be addressed, you can drain things towards roof drains or scuppers using the spray foam. And you eliminate all of those joints that are common in traditional polyiso systems, not to mention an improved R-value. So your traditional sheet applied ISO has an R-value of about 5.7 R per inch of thickness. Your traditional three pound roof foam is in the 6 to 6.2 range.

So a considerable increase in thermal performance in the product itself, which if you're doing a retrofit or maybe a building that you cannot modify the facade to accommodate increased R-values to bring the system up to code, spray foam can save you a couple inches in overall height if there's parapet walls, if there's entryways that need to be flashed around, there are options out there for minimizing the height of the insulation while still bringing it up to code. And the increase in R-value that spray foam offers is a great way to get around that. We talked about the self-latching nature. Obviously you can go right up and around any penetrations, any rooftop units, so you're not trying to patch in or leave in holes half inch or an inch around all of these various pieces of equipment that are on a roof. So a lot of great benefits to the spray polyurethane foam from a performance aspect.

And then on the shipping side, you're shipping a couple drums of material to a roof system, not several trucks of rigid polyiso. So there's a savings that are from an environmental standpoint, from a transportation standpoint, from a storage standpoint. You don't have to tarp the drums like you do traditional polyisos if it's going to rain. So a lot of things to take into account when you're looking at a spray polyurethane foam base. And additionally, while you can use some of the glass faced rigid ISO to create an air and vapor barrier, 70% of the rigid ISO that's used out there is just paper faced. And spray polyurethane foam, because it is close cell because there's no joints and gaps, can provide an air and vapor barrier for your overall roofing system, potentially eliminating the need for an additional step or an additional layer in the roof assembly. And then of course, you would top coat all of this with the same monolithic waterproofing membrane.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: To put it in there. And I know that there is some costs involved in getting into spray foams. Not always. I mean, you don't always need a full truck. There's other ways of installing that. But from having been at the spray foam show, having seen what the contractors are doing, there is a rising demand for spray foam contractors.

Ed Klonowski: There is. Because of its performance and some of the benefits it can offer, it's really rapidly growing in the roof space, in the wall space. And yeah, there is a little bit of a hurdle to overcome from an investment standpoint up front, that equipment when properly maintained will last decades. So if you amortize it, not so bad.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Exactly. And well, this is the time of year when contractors are looking at that right now to say, "Is this something that I want to do?" Getting ready for 2025.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, and you continue to have new manufacturers offering the spray foam equipment. So obviously with more manufacturers, that's going to put more competition on costs. So that should hopefully also bring down the investment initially needed.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, great stuff. So let's talk a little bit about the other type of system and let's talk about the reinforced advantages.

Ed Klonowski: So as an alternative to investing in spray foam equipment, these systems can also be used over your traditional roof insulation systems. So if you're a contractor that's looking at maybe trying their hand at some roof coatings, you can utilize the same training you've already received for installing rigid polyiso, gypsum cover board, HD ISO cover board whether it's mechanically attached, fully adhered, that all installs the same and performs the same as it would in a traditional single-ply system. Now where you would change is instead of going over top with a single-ply system that's mechanically fastened, induction welded or fully adhered, you would then apply a liquid-applied system. So this is where you would go and put down your first layer, reinforce it with a fabric and then apply your second layer to seal it off. Once again, eliminating all of the seams, all of the corner patches, all of the boots around penetrations, all of those accessory pieces that are needed with single-ply systems. You flash right up to it, you attach directly to it, there's no gaps, no welding, no nothing to create this monolithic system.

And once you've been trained on traditional coating applications, whether it's a maintenance coating or a liquid-applied system, there's really not much difference in the application of these products. Just an additional step, typically with the application of your reinforcement layer. And as Heidi had mentioned earlier, these can go over existing systems just the same as a reskin with a single-ply. There's surface preparation that needs to happen as is the same in the other example, cleaning it, making sure that you have good adhesion and then away you go. But yeah, a lot of advantages with the reinforced systems as well, just utilizing the existing labor training that you have on the traditional board or sheet applied iso.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. And I mean that makes sense. I think people understand that too, because it's something even kind of... It's the next step after maintenance coatings, right? Where you're starting to put those systems together, and so it's a natural progression for your crews, for your company to be able to start incorporating that.

Let's talk just a little bit about considerations. Because as contractors are out there going, "Okay, how do I add this too? What are we doing here? Why should we do it?" What are some considerations that they should have top of mind as they're thinking about liquid-applied systems?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean the big one here is that second roof. So depending on the building, if it's not the first roof being applied, like Heidi mentioned, these can go over existing roofing systems. And if you do apply it over any existing roof system, it will count as a second roof on that building. So something to be cautious of, great performing systems, but if you already have two roofs installed, might be better to look at going with a maintenance coating instead of tearing off and starting new. So definitely something to be cautious of. These can be applied over pretty much any existing roof systems. Doesn't matter if it's single-ply, built up, tar and gravel, there's options to apply these systems over all of those existing roofs.

And then ultimately, the sustainability option. We talked earlier about the reflectivity transition. If you're going from an EPDM, a modified, a built up roof to something reflective, great and easy way to do that. But most importantly is really looking at not having to tear off the existing system that's there. There's tons and tons... Construction waste makes up the biggest landfill utilization of anything out there. And if we can reuse the existing ISO and any existing waterproofing that's already in place, it's a huge deal when you look at the number of buildings and the number of roofs that we're doing on an annual basis. So huge sustainability play when you look at using either a maintenance or a liquid-applied system in place of a re-roof.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, Holcim is so well known for sustainability and for everything that's going on with sustainability. This seems to me that when you're talking to building owners that you are going to be able to hit several different marks when it comes to sustainability or environmental product definitions. Talk a little bit about that. And I mean, obviously the picture right here is not of a white roof coating, but with white roof coatings and also just the lack of tear off, how can contractors use that as an advantage or a consideration when talking to their building owners?

Ed Klonowski: Well, there's definitely the cost aspect. You're not having to pay for replacing ISO. The time it takes to install these systems is far faster because you're not tearing off and redoing everything from the ground up. Depending on the building you're in, it's a lot less noise inside if you have to close the facility to have this done. Obviously, it's a huge benefit to be able to apply a new system over top of an existing one. Labor, we talked about the lack of labor in market. You can do this with a much smaller crew and much faster than installing a full new system.

So time savings, labor savings, cost savings, the environmental benefits we talked about earlier, these can be a lot more forgiving in application ranges from a temperature perspective, compared to depending on if you're fully adhering a single-ply system. There are coatings out there that offer a broader range of application temperatures than a lot of the adhesives can. So there's just a lot of benefits to the building owner that can be pushed from the contractor by going this route instead of a new reskin or a new roofing system in totality.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, and we do have a question. And actually, hello, Ed. Ed's been here before and he's really been in search of, so he has said, "We sold Gaco and other roof silicones for years on federal government jobs. In the last year with Dow removing all oxime formulas from their products, and Europe banning MEKO, can you give us other options for our federal roofing jobs, please?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah. So there's two different chemistry types out there if you're looking specifically for silicones there's alkoxy and there's oxime, each of which has their pros and cons. So if they're banning oximes, you can certainly use an alkoxy based silicone, would provide the exact same type of performance and application as your existing system. So that's definitely an option.

Now, if you can get around the specifications for the government work of silicones, there are obviously other coatings out there, urethanes, PMMAs, PUMAs, polyureas, that can serve a similar performance benefit in those applications. Costs are going to be slightly different up and down depending on which route you go, but that would also require a spec change, which may or may not be in the cards for government work. So speaking specifically on silicones, there is two specific chemistries out there that you can pursue.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: To get around to make sure you're hitting what the federal government wants. Okay. One of the things that we haven't... I know we're going to talk about training here in a little bit, but I do want to talk just a little bit when we're talking about considerations for liquid-applied systems, we really need to talk about the condition of the roof too. That is incredibly important that contractors understand how to prep the roof and to make sure everything... Can you kind of go through that a little bit and just talk about how important that is?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean, because these are fully adhered systems that are typically going over something that's already in place, they're only as good as what's already down there. So evaluating the existing system to make sure it's a candidate for a liquid-applied system or maintenance coating is of utmost importance. We talk about the benefits of a fully adhered system, if the system that we're adhering to is lackluster or in disrepair, obviously that directly affects the performance that you can expect to see from the liquid-applied coating.

So first and foremost, you want to make sure that the existing system is dry. If you have wet insulation, that needs to be removed and replaced. The existing waterproofing system, whether it's a built-up system, whether it's a single-ply, needs to be addressed, patched, repaired as needed. If you need to treat seams, if you need to repair small patches of the product, that should be done with like product, not with a coating, to ensure that that existing waterproofing system is sounded in good standing.

And then from there, you really need to look at the adhesion of the system. So simple pull tests with the existing material. Typically you would wash the existing membrane or a built-up system with a simple detergent, rinse that off. Depending on what you're applying and what you're going over, you could potentially power wash it. But you got to be careful with the base system that's in place. But those are really the main three things. You want to have a substrate that's clean and dry, that's waterproof and that has good adhesion. And that'll dictate kind of any primers that are needed if that's the case for the existing or the top coat that you're planning on using.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Great. We have another question. Thank you, everyone. Keep them coming. The new question is, "Do you sell Gaco in Australia and New Zealand?"

Ed Klonowski: I don't think we have any direct lines of sales over there. That said, if you can reach out to me, I can put you in touch with some potential suppliers that we have through the Holcim broader network that can help you find some material.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So Jeremy, first of all, thank you so much for coming from New Zealand. And second of all, we'll have Ed, if you could maybe put your email address into the chat so that he can get ahold of you. That would be great. And you can always, Jeremy, if you need additional, you can always heidi@rooferscoffeeshop.com and I will get you connected. No problem. We do have a question from Philip, and it is, "What is the insurance implication when applying new coatings?"

Ed Klonowski: So most of the insurance companies are going to look at UL and FM approvals. Since most of the buildings are FM insured, they tend to follow those approvals pretty tongue in cheek. So if you're in that type of situation, most of the coatings Gaco offers and I know there's a host of other manufacturers that offer coatings with the same UL and FM approvals, you will be able to maintain that insurance approval that through FM or whoever your insurer is. But you'll want to make sure that whatever system you're applying has those approvals. And typically on your product data sheets or your install specs, it'll list out how you have to apply it and what approvals that system ultimately has with the regulatory body.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So being sure to check in with your building owner and understanding what the requirements are there with what they're doing is so important. So before we kind of go into this last thing and training, I do want to just recap a little bit, Ed, on really, as contractors are sitting down right now looking at 2025 with their building owners and looking at roofs, doing inspections, service and maintenance and really putting these programs together, what are some of your advice on how to position coatings, liquid-applied membranes, spray foam or everything we've talked about today, what is your advice on positioning that to the building owners for the contractors to really see a successful year to continue their service and maintenance and additional re-roofs or repairs?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so this all depends on what we've seen later this year and ultimately what the economy does. As we head into 2025. One of the huge benefits of these systems overall is the cost of product and the installation cost of these systems. Being able to go in and compete either over a reskin or over a new roof, you can be very competitive compared to traditional systems as you position your bids. If the market continues to tighten up, as we're starting to see now, being able to position these systems as a maintenance cost instead of a capital cost can be a big benefit to the building owner depending on their situation. And then the environmental aspect, depending on the values that a given building owner has, there's a lot of advantages to reusing what you have. If you can prolong and extend that at a cost that's superior to an existing or a single-ply alternative, there's a great story to tell there with the building owner.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And I think that you just hit it, what's important to them? What kind of values are they following? What kind of budgets? What are they looking at for sustainability? What requirements are they trying to meet? I know there's a lot of large property management companies out there that are really looking to hit certain goals for the environment and for sustainability. So really important. We do have just a comment here I think, "The government requires two equal products when we bid. Only alkoxy we can find is GE momentive." So not sure. We might have to get back to you on it. I know you've been in search of, so we're going to keep asking that question. Unless, Ed, do you have any ideas?

Ed Klonowski: I know there's a couple products in development that should be available next year in the alkoxy space.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. You heard it here.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so stay tuned. There will be other options outside of GE for alkoxy based silicones.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. And finally, he said, "Do you think the industry will follow Dow and eliminate MEKO a class two carcinogen and make this safer?"

Ed Klonowski: So the roofing industry in whole is not adverse to change, but they don't like change. They have a product that's worked for decades, they don't want to change anything. So while manufacturers are doing everything they can to eliminate some of the redless chemicals, VOC adhesive, stuff of that nature, there's always apprehension from contractors to try something new. Especially when you're looking at the implications of a failed system on a roof. So to answer the question, yes, manufacturers are looking at these options and pursuing the chemistry changes that are needed. But it'll take time to get through code approvals and to gain traction and proven performance in market to make them mainstream.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent. Thank you so much. Okay, let's talk about training. Because, as we just talked about, knowing the prep of the roof. And so there's training on so many these levels. There's training on the actual installation on the roof, but there's also training inside for your sales team and the things that you're doing there. So Ed, talk a little bit about what you recommend for training to get into liquid-applied and overall maintenance coatings.

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, so I mean, first and foremost, if there's a manufacturer that has good representation in your area, reach out to them first. Most of them have fantastic training programs set up. You'll typically head to one of their facilities where they will do hands-on and classroom training on all of the different systems per your need. And further to that, getting certified by a given manufacturer to install their systems opens up additional opportunities for you if you're looking at warranted systems or require additional support in the field.

Now, I will shamelessly say, I think Gaco has one of the best support structures in that respective. Fantastic training program. We have over 40 individual area and distribution managers across the country that have all gone through this training. So they're not only trying to sell a product, but they've been trained on it. They've hand applied it on roofs, in the classroom everywhere. They know how it applies, and they can be a great resource to anyone that reaches out to them if they're coming across an issue, if they need to know the proper way of doing something. A properly trained salesman should be able to help them, train them and show them how these systems go down. So manufacturers, start with them, fantastic resources and help from any of the major suppliers out there.

Additionally, RCMA, that's a conglomeration of many of the top coating manufacturers in the industry. So RCMA is Roof Coating Manufacturers Association. Gaco is a member as well as a number of other coating suppliers. But we continually come together and create new training programs. I think we just launched one a couple of months ago, and there's plenty more on the hopper, so that'll be a great resource for you to learn additional information on product, on application, on positioning. And then just getting in the field next to someone that's been doing it. Hands-on training is worth tenfold what you would learn in the classroom, just like a picture's worth a thousand words. Being able to sit side by side with someone on a roof that's done this, be it a sales rep, a technical rep or a colleague that's used to using these coatings is invaluable training that will go its distance and worth its weight in gold as you're learning to apply these systems.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And I want to just, first of all, let's talk just a little bit, I know you just mentioned it, but if people want to get training in the field or in the classroom or online from Gaco, how do they go about doing that?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean there's a couple ways. You can reach directly out on our website. We have training information there. You could submit for classroom sessions, probably in Wisconsin is where we do many of them. We host many trainings throughout the US at distribution facilities, where we can bring in your whole crew or they're just Gaco sponsored and anyone that's interested can come in. Or you can reach out to your local area or distribution manager. They can set up the training directly with your team if that's something you prefer. So just reaching out via website, your area manager, your distribution manager, keeping in touch with your distributor. ABC, Beacon, any of those guys, we host regular training activities at their facilities. So just reach out and you'll find something no problem.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. And any more questions, please put them in the chat. We're coming to the top of our hour. It's gone by so fast. But I do want to revisit Roof Coating Manufacturers Association. You mentioned RCMA. They do have a fall meeting coming up October 23rd through the 25th, if you are interested and if anyone here is interested in attending, anyone can attend. You just go to roofcoatings.org. And you're going to hear a lot of what's going on, what we were talking about earlier, new chemistries, new initiatives, building codes, specifications. And we're going to have a full contractor panel there too, talking about contractor concerns and with the manufacturers, vendors, chemical companies that are going to be there during this meeting. So that's October 23rd through the 25th at the St. Paul Riverfront in Minneapolis, Minnesota or St. Paul, Minnesota, I should say.

So the other thing about RCMA, and I know, Ed, you've been really involved is they have online classes just for overall. So if you go on there, you can get certificates by taking each class. And they were put together by all professionals like Ed and all the members of RCMA to help train the industry around roof coating. So great opportunities both in person and online for training along with everything else that we have. So as we go through this, Ed, final, as we see if there's any additional questions here... Oh and thank you Ralph for putting that in for the fall meeting, it is in the chat. You can check that out. Last tips for everyone on this call who wants to either continue to grow their coatings and fluid applied membranes business or want to get into it for the first time, what are some of the things that you would recommend?

Ed Klonowski: Yeah, I mean, it's a very rapidly growing segment of roofing. It's already 20% market share of roofing systems that are going down when you compare it against your single-plies, your built-up systems. It continues to gain traction for many of the reasons we discussed today. So if you have a small maintenance area, you're looking at expanding that into full maintenance coatings, not just a patch and repair type opportunity, these offer a very cost-effective, very, time-effective, very personnel-effective alternative to single-ply systems that are out there. And I think if you do a little research, get in touch with your local area manager, learn more about the capabilities of a lot of these systems, I think you will come to find that these are a lot more than meets the eye when it comes to performance and longevity of a roofing system.

For those that are already in the market, you always kind of find your favorite chemistry depending on your location. But I would encourage you to look at some of the new stuff that's coming out, whether it's some bio-based chemistries, whether it's exploring some of the high-build instant cure products, some of the liquid-applied membranes that are starting to come out, like the PMMAs, the PUMAs. There's some interesting stuff out there that while it might not be your bread and butter can open some additional doors for you guys to pursue in various applications. So stay in touch with your sales rep, stay in touch with the market. Obviously these CoatingsCoffeeShop talks are a huge resource for you guys. Just having all the manufacturers on here talking about what they're seeing in the market, what's new, what's changing. You'll keep a good pulse on what's happening and continue to open more and more doors for you and your business.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. Thank you, Ed. And thank you because it is so great to be able to have these conversations and share this and really look at the future and what we're bringing to it. And again, I will be moderating that panel at RCMA of contractors. Ed, I believe you're going to be there at the RMCA.

Ed Klonowski: I'll see you in October.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: In October. And we will as always have another CoatingsCoffeeShop or Coatings Talk next month. So every month we're having these kinds of conversations. I want to say thank you to Joe and Lisa and everyone on here who is... And Jeremy, thank you so much for being here and for a great, great conversation. And a big thank you to Gaco for sponsoring this. And for your wisdom and talent, Ed, thank you so much for sharing it with everyone today.

Ed Klonowski: Well, thank you for moderating, Heidi.

Outro: Thank you. And thank you all. We will have Coatings Talk again from CoatingsCoffeeShop next month. It's always the second week of the month, and it's on Wednesdays at 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern. We will see you then. Have a great day. Thanks, everybody.