Paint Performance and Warranties for Metal Roofing - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Amanda Paterline and Brad Shreve of AkzoNobel. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the video.

Megan Ellsworth: Welcome to CoatingsCast, the ultimate podcast dedicated to the science, art and innovation of liquid and fluid applied roofing, coatings for surfaces and waterproofing. It's time to roll up our sleeves, put on our lab coats and dive head first into the world of liquid protection that keeps your roofs and surfaces in prime condition. The future is here and it's liquid, so don't miss out. This is CoatingsCast, where every drop counts in the world of roof and surface protection. Hello everyone. My name is Megan Ellsworth here at coatingscoffeeshop.com. I am back for a CoatingsCast podcast all about innovations in coating, surface protection and liquid in a fluid applied roofing. I'm so excited to be chatting with my friends here at AkzoNobel, Amanda and Brad. So, hello friends, how are you?

Amanda Paterline: Hey, we're good.

Megan Ellsworth: Yay, glad to hear it.

Amanda Paterline: Thanks for having us.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, absolutely. Glad to have you here. Amanda, let's just dive right in and have you introduce yourself and then we'll hear a little bit from Brad.

Amanda Paterline: Sure, yeah. Thanks, Megan. I'm Amanda Paterline. I'm the commercial marketing manager for our North America Coil and Extrusion business unit. I joined AkzoNobel almost exactly a year ago. I have a background in chemistry and have done a lot of work in product development for coatings and industrial and automotive applications before moving to sales and then product management and ultimately marketing.

Megan Ellsworth: Awesome. That's great. Brad, who are you? Tell us about you.

Brad Shreve: I can't go without saying this past year with Amanda coming on board, we've definitely realized some significant improvements with her being on board. So we love having Amanda. I'm Brad Shreve. I've been with AkzoNobel for almost nine years now. I have 25 years R&D experience. My background's polymer engineering, so I started my career in rubber and sort of meandered my way into resins and adhesives, which got me into coatings, which I never really gave much thought about until I sort of stumbled in coatings and really just fell in love with it. So the majority of my career has been in coatings on the R&D side, and about two and a half years ago I moved to the commercial side. So I'm a technical support person, I guess you could say, on the commercial side. I handle technical projects, I manage our weathering program, our warranties, field claims and I'm lucky enough to get to do educational content like this.

Megan Ellsworth: Oh, that's great. Yeah. We all love little education now and then, so could either of you tell us about a little bit of the history of AkzoNobel? You guys have been in the paint and coatings industry forever. How does that pertain to the roofing industry?

Amanda Paterline: Yeah, so I can kind of share our history and maybe Brad will share more on our resins and product history. So our coil coatings business unit was founded in 1888 under predecessor Hannah Paints. So we've been in the coil coatings industry for obviously many years, and through a series of acquisitions we grew and in 1994, we merged with Nobel to become what we're known as today, AkzoNobel as it pertains to the coil coatings industry and in turn, metal roofing. In 2015, we opened our LEED certified R&D Center in Strongsville, Ohio. This was really to support the growth and new product development of our metal coatings business unit. We manufacture our paints out of Columbus, Ohio and Garcia, Mexico. We also have a plant in Huron, Ohio that supports our coil coatings business unit.

So with that, we have really grown in the US as well as globally. We've supported many projects, monumental, commercial, agriculture and residential for the metal buildings systems and metal roofing. So some examples of more recent projects with our TRINAR technology, our monumental buildings in China, like the Bund Finance Centre and Morpheus Hotel and then you could even find us in the US on buildings like the OSU Research Center. So we have obviously a very long history in North America, but it's been cool to see our regional growth and then global reach with our technologies.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda Paterline: Brad, I don't know if you want to share a bit more specifically on the product side.

Brad Shreve: Yeah, absolutely. So as Amanda said, so we have a deep history in paints and coatings and kind of coming closer to our market and metal buildings and metal roofing. We've been around for a really long time and really have basically followed the emergence of the metal market and the Americas, especially now metal roofing. And so AkzoNobel is a leader in coatings for metal roofing. Our main brands for that market would be TRINAR, CERAM-A-STAR and POLYDURE and each one of those comes with its own set of unique characteristics and known durability and longevity on the given structure. I think one of the things that's not totally unique about AkzoNobel, but very special about AkzoNobel when it comes to our products is that we do manufacture most of our resins that happens right here in Ohio and here on Ohio, and we have the flexibility to tailor our resins to the given needs of a specific market, which makes us the player we are in the market.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, makes you flexible.

Brad Shreve: Absolutely.

Megan Ellsworth: Could you provide a little overview of the importance of paint performance in metal roofing specifically?

Amanda Paterline: So if I just kind of walk us through, our coil coatings are factory applied finishes. So when we think about paint performance, we're including the entire kind of value chain. So talking about paint performance, we look at ease of application on the coil coating line that will yield consistent color, consistent gloss and a uniform appearance. So that's going to translate to high quality off the line and then support smoother fabrication and install for a uniform finished roofing system. We do a lot of performance testing such as T-bend, adhesion, scratch resistance to translate to hassle-free transport, improved kind of flexibility in your roll forming and slitting processes so that that way you have a robust system to enable the start of installation. I think the finished product, I'd let our expert, Brad, talk about that frontline protection, how we test for weathering and yield a great system to allow for the longevity of a metal roofing system.

Brad Shreve: Without a doubt. So paint performance is critical in a quality roof system, metal roof system, and I can't go any further without saying protection, protection, protection. I mean the paint is the first thing our eyes see. It's generally what the customer cares about the most, how it looks and they are beautiful. But these coatings were developed to protect metal. We know how metal behaves in certain atmospheres, so we're protecting the metal, which is then in turn protecting that roof and protecting that structure underneath the roof so far and away, protection is key. And then we get into the paint performance when it comes to in-service conditions. So not all paints are created equally, and so depending on the paint chemistry is going to dictate how it performed in a certain environment and beyond that, these paints all have different attributes when it comes to physical durability.

So it's very important to consider this when it comes to the manufacturer of that structure and of the roof panels itself. We are unique in the sense in the coil coating world to make roof panels, the panels coated prior to being fabricated into its final part. And so that paint has to go through all of these processes and come out just as beautiful as when it started.

Amanda Paterline: Another factor to be considered for customers who are seeking more environmentally conscious or maybe a bit more conscious of sustainable solutions. Certain coatings offered by AkzoNobel have kind of a cool chemistry effect, so they have light reflective pigments in it that can aid in keeping building temperatures lower. So that's something that maybe doesn't always come to mind when selecting coatings for metal roofing, but they can in fact help with keeping building temps down and in turn less energy intensive consumption of the building itself. So Cool Roof Ratings Council is always something to check out for more information on that.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, we love the Cool Roof Ratings Council. They're great. They're based out of Oregon too, and that was such a great point, Amanda. Going off of that, what other factors should people be considering when they're selecting paint for their metal roof when they're looking at long-term performance?

Brad Shreve: So yeah, if we're talking about long-term performance, really there's a lot of factors that need to be considered. We're talking about decades in service warranties up to 40 or so years. So there are a lot of considerations when we think of the chemical technology all the way to the final system, the whole coil, the metal panel system. So I think first and foremost is the reputation, the reputation of that coating. There are many coating companies out there, and you're not bound to use one specific coatings company. Our consumers have a choice and the information is out there to understand the reputation and the service life of the different manufacturers. Beyond that, then it would really come down to the owners, the building owner's needs, their desired needs and the in-service conditions of where this is going to be. So these products do perform differently on a regional basis.

So whether we're in hot, humid, sunny South Florida or maybe not so hot Midwest, Northern Midwest, these factors make a big difference when it comes to selecting the right coating for a given structure. The total system is critical and certainly all the way through to the fabrication and the installation, know who's going to this. In AkzoNobel, we like to do a lot of engagement with our customers, a lot of training and our customers love to talk about that. So these are questions that any consumer could ask to learn more about the paint system and the overall system.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, totally. Going exactly off of that, how do different environmental conditions affect the performance and durability of these metal roof paints and coatings?

Amanda Paterline: Yeah, so obviously more when you consider coastal environments, they could potentially yield a more corrosive environment. So substrate selection with pretreatment and paint system will be critical. We do accelerated salt fog testing as well as seaside weathering and have a pretty extensive global weathering program in South Florida to help us sort of predict and monitor how our coatings stand up to harsher conditions over time. So when considering that along with substrate selection, ensuring there's not dissimilar metals touching at point of install, you can yield a very robust system that will stand up to harsh UV conditions, harsh moist conditions that could cause corrosion or cause chalk and fade of color. But if you have that robust system established, especially in a coastal environment where you use something like a PVDF system like our TRINAR, you're going to have good color and gloss retention, right substrate, primer. Top coat system will yield corrosion resistance. So while those are concerns, the quality of your system should stave off some of those damaging environmental effects.

Brad Shreve: Yep. It is always this total system mindset. I mean, we make the paint and we're proud of the quality of the paint we make, but we have no control over the rest of that system, the pretreatment, the metal substrate, how it's applied. So it is always this total system mentality. But in large, when it comes to environmental effects, we have UV radiation from the sun, we have heat, we have moisture in the form of humidity, but also rain. We have wind, biological effects and all of this comes together in a complicated soup of weathering, if you will, that will attack and have its effects on any given substance. So we have a very extensive weathering program. We do a lot of natural weathering in a variety of regions to really understand how our products perform in these regions for any given technology. So AkzoNobel has three main technologies. TRINAR, that is our PVDF, polyvinylidene difluoride resin based coating.

And so PVDF would be considered the best when we're talking about roof coatings. It is transparent to UV radiation and UV radiation heat aside has a significant degradation effect when it comes to initiating chemical reactions for the degradation of a material. So we have the best and then the better would be our CERAM-A-STAR 1050 silicone modified polyester. It has great properties all the way around, but it is not completely transparent to UV radiation. So we may see a slight bit more chalking or fading compared to a PVDF. And then if we go down to the good, which is our POLYDURE 1000 system, it is a straight polyester. There's no silicone moieties in this. And so it's a very good performer. It's not going to last as long as say CERAM-A-STAR or TRINAR when it comes to UV radiation. But this goes back to the earlier questions of understanding where these products are going to be placed in service, right?

If it's going to be a really dark, cold atmosphere, you probably don't need the TRINAR to perform as long as is desired. So we have UV, we have heat. Heat is energy, a different form of energy that has chemical reactions continue, and it's related to the rate of the chemical reaction. So a hotter environment, we're going to have chemical reactions of degradation happening quicker than a colder environment. And then we have moisture and that comes together with UV and heat and moisture offers a lot of the mobility. We think of paint as this dry film, and yes, it is a dry film, but there's a lot of molecular movement going on and a lot of chemical interactions going on. And so the moisture can aid in the mobility.

It's also imparting oxygen and then other materials along with it. And so this complicated soup comes together and gives you your result based on any given region. We do test significantly, like I said, outdoor regions to really understand the effects of a natural environment. And at the same time we do, as Amanda said, we have to do accelerated artificial testing if we want to understand how something performs for 10 years outdoors, you have to wait 10 years. There's no speeding that up. So we can use both techniques. We can use artificial accelerated and correlate to our natural weathering data to really fully understand the weathering effects and how it affects any particular technology that we have to offer.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. That's just really great information for contractors too in different parts of the country. If you're in Denver where it's sunny like 300 days of the year, you want maybe that best tier for that UV protection. And then likewise with maybe it's less sunny, maybe it's cooler, it's hotter. That's really great information.

Brad Shreve: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And there's certainly a cost associated with each brand, each technology. And so you may want the best and there's a cost to have the best, but you might not need to pay that just exactly like you're saying.

Amanda Paterline: I think too, during fabrication and install, we do testing to ensure that the coatings can withstand handling. But there will be instances where the metal roofing panels are going to expand and contract, and that can sometimes affect the appearance and give a bit of a wavy appearance like oil canning. So when customers are selecting their color and gloss level, obviously they want an exciting color and the aesthetics play into their choices. But when they look at lower gloss or textured coatings like our frost, that can help mask some of those imperfections that might come up or that are inherent to the install process of a metal roof. So it's kind of cool. I think our most popular frost product, it's a little lower gloss and texture can also help with some... It almost opens up a bit the process window for install and can sometimes help mask some imperfections in installation.

And of course, nicks or scratches that come up during installation, we should take care of those immediately while we test to make sure we have good scratch and more resistance. It does happen. So you want to make sure it's not down to substrate layer or you'll have to really mitigate that scratch to prevent corrosion. So just ensuring that contractors and installers have a good care and maintenance plan or have a good damage plan in place for when touch up is needed is also important.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. I mean, you've led that question beautifully. What are some other common issues that can arise with paint on metal roofs and how can they be mitigated through AkzoNobel's products?

Amanda Paterline: So as I mentioned, we do test for scratch and mar hopefully contractors aren't totally high traffic walking on the roof, but it does happen. So we develop coatings that will stand up to installation and fabrication damages that could occur, but of course it's still going to happen. You're using sharp tools, whatever. So if that does happen, we have touch up care and maintenance programs that we can guide our customers on implementing. I think Brad has better insight into recommended regular maintenance of roofing to help with some of the other common issues or to stave off common issues that could occur.

Brad Shreve: So well put, Amanda, and really to reiterate, again, we love this teamwork approach, the engagement with our customers and our customers' customers to train and understand the full product, how to use it, how to handle it, what it can withstand when it comes to handling. So without a doubt, we all play a role in this, right? We make the paint, a coder coats the paint, another company cuts it and another company forms it and another company installs it, and everyone's handling this paint all along the way. So we share a role in that part when it comes to a failure and trying to mitigate a failure. So understanding how to handle it is certainly important.

But going back to the paint and the paint technology point of this, which is obviously where we stand, the common issues when it comes to a metal roof are generally film integrity. Is the paint going to stay where it was intended to stay? Is it going to stick there for the long term? Fade, right? We are doing beautiful colors. We want the colors to fade as little as possible. Chalk. Chalking is an indication of the resin binder breaking down over time, and it does kind of on a microscopic level, powders up and you get a little bit of a chalky surface. But then we also have things that are a little less in control of the coatings technology, and we're thinking about dirt, right, biological buildup, as Amanda said earlier, dissimilar metals, all of these other things that can affect the quality of the overall product, and certainly the beautiful coating that everyone's seeing.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. And moss, if you're in the Pacific Northwest, that's huge.

Brad Shreve: Absolutely. Absolutely.

One thing I'd like to point out, just there are regional biological things, and so oftentimes people say, "Ah, that moldy roof." And it might not be mold, and it could be algae, as you said. It could be moss, it could be other things. There's actually a whiskey fungus. It's a fungus that grows near whiskey distilleries, right? There's yeast in the air. So it's a very regional sort of thing, and you have to understand what it is so you can clean it properly. And so for example, in South Florida, everyone just says it's mold or mildew, but it's actually algae, right? It's an algae that grows and it's dark, and algae is a plant, so it's photosynthesizing and it's just thriving on this facing the sun. So just a little, when it comes to something that's very common, which is a dirty roof, we do have a care and maintenance guide and we recommend certain cleaning procedures. Certainly understand what that dirty look might be to be able to address it better.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, definitely. So let's get into that, the care and maintenance and mainly how do warranties play a role when customers, contractors, homeowners are selecting the paint they want to use in their performance?

Brad Shreve: Yeah, they do. They play a significant role, certainly there's with and without a warranty. That's the key one right there. You either are or are not covered with a warranty, and there's a certain level of satisfaction knowing that you have some coverage with this product. It's an indicator of quality. So oftentimes at the contractor level, they refer to the paint by their warranty. They will say, "This is a 40-year paint. This is a 30-year paint." That's how important it is in their mind, and that's how they sort of gauge it based on quality. But it's not only an indicator of quality, it's a very multifaceted sort of thing. It is a document that a company's taking on a certain amount of risk.

Every product is going to have some warranty claims and warranty issues. So a company knows that going into it, and a company wants to minimize the risk. So particular number as attached to a warranty is a great indicator of the quality, but there's a lot of detail in that warranty that needs to be understood. So if you're comparing a 40-year film integrity warranty with a 30-year film integrity warranty, it does not necessarily mean that the 40-year is better. That's the terms that particular company set up that they feel comfortable with. And I can say that knowing AkzoNobel's history and what we do with our weathering program, our warranties are very, very tuned into that data and the known performance.

Megan Ellsworth: That's great.

Brad Shreve: So, a particular technology. There may be some different numbers comparing warranties from manufacturer to manufacturer, but we feel very comfortable in our warranties and it shows in a very, very low rate of warranty claims that we see.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, that's great. Can you kind of get into a little bit more detail of typical terms and coverage of paint warranties for these metal roofs?

Brad Shreve: Yep, absolutely. So I think kind of high level down, we have a vertical installation or a non-vertical, right? So vertical or non-vertical. And that certainly in exterior is going to dictate how much UV radiation especially is received. So there is generally a warranty term for a vertical versus a non-vertical. So that's one thing to keep in mind. And then as we go down generally in the paint for metal roofing, it comes to film integrity, color fade and shock resistance. And each one of those parameters has a rating based on a given test that's done for that particular parameter. And then that rating is assigned a duration. So for example, a color fade, there might be a maximum color fade of a Delta E of seven, so it cannot change beyond seven units over a given period of time, maybe 30, 35 years.

And we do the same thing for film integrity and shock resistance. Warranties have a lot of detail to them. So there's also exclusions, right? What is not covered in a warranty? And it's important for a customer to understand that. We do, I wouldn't say regularly, but we certainly get inquiries for warranty claims on things that are just not associated with the paint performance, but customers might assume that it is. And then there's remedies, right? So if a company's going to honor their warranty, what is the remedy? What are they going to do for the customer? Generally, there's a cash offer. We may offer to repaint or maybe completely replace that roof or sidewall if necessary.

Megan Ellsworth: Okay. That's great. Well, thank you both so much for sharing your knowledge with us today. This has been fabulous.

Brad Shreve: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Amanda Paterline: Thank you for having us, Megan. Yeah. We like talking paint.

Megan Ellsworth: Yay. I love talking paint too. Well, is there anything else you'd like the public out there to know about AkzoNobel and your wonderful products before we leave?

Amanda Paterline: Yeah, Brad talked a lot about warranty. I think it's definitely worth checking out what we've done with our CERAM-A-STAR Select Warranty. We feel so confident in CERAM-A-STAR's performance that we have some great kind of offerings there with our warranty, a limited lifetime transferable warranties offered with the Select program. You also can talk with us about our no coastal setbacks. We don't have any verbiage around our coatings with where they are in regards to the coast. So if anyone is interested in learning more, they could go to our website and just contact us and talk with one of our Akzo team members, or just give us a follow on LinkedIn and Facebook, reach out to me or Brad for more info, and follow along for more tips and insights on our Facebook and LinkedIn pages.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, that's awesome. You can also go to coatingscoffeeshop.com, AkzoNobel has a directory where you can find all of those amazing warranties and great information there as well. All of this will be linked in the show notes down below, so go check them out and say hi to Amanda and Brad on LinkedIn. Thank you both so much. This has been really informational and educational, and I've had a great time.

Brad Shreve: Well, thank you. It's a pleasure. Yeah, as Amanda said, we love paint. We love talk about paint, so don't ever hesitate to contact us.

Amanda Paterline: Yep.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Everyone out there listening, this has been a CoatingsCast, and we will see you next time on coatingscoffeeshop.com. Thanks for joining us on this coating adventure. Stay tuned for more episodes. And in the meantime, be sure to follow us on social media to stay updated with all things roof coatings. Until next time, stay coated. For more information, go to coatingscoffeeshop.com.